Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 100 of 103 - 84 Rcv From : Dave Paxton 1:369/3 Mon 07 Feb 94 09:57 To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД JM>Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs in this JM>area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable information on eludin JM>search dogs. Hmmm, very interesting question John. I have very little experience with eluding hounds. However, I do remember something about pouring good strong household amonia on the ground in your tracks ruining their nose for a couple of hours. I se to know someone that kept a squirt gun full of amonia on his bike, did wonders for stoping attacking dogs, get it near their nose and they usually come to a very abrupt halt. The old fashioned "walking in a stream" works but most trackers tend to eventually find the scent by running the dogs up both sides of the stream. Sooner or later you gotta come out. It does slow them down though on a 50 50 chance that they choose the wrong way first. I talked to one man a long time ago that got away from the dogs by walking into a stream, then backtracking the same trail to an area he had seen earlier where he used his staff to vault off the trail and down a drop of about 10 feet. The trackers spent all that time following both sides of the stream in both directions that he got a clean break in the trail. He was waiting for the tracking crew in the truck, asleep, when they finally gave up and came home. Big Dave * SLMR 2.1a * Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! --- WM v3.10/92-0203 # Origin: Daybreak Mail System - *HST/V32* - 305-771-0041 (1:369/3) * Origin: EchoGate! (9:2500/0.0) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 76 of 97 - 60 + 80 Rcv From : Dave Paxton 1:369/3 Mon 07 Feb 94 09:57 To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД JM>Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs in this JM>area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable information on eludin JM>search dogs. Hmmm, very interesting question John. I have very little experience with eluding hounds. However, I do remember something about pouring good strong household amonia on the ground in your tracks ruining their nose for a couple of hours. I se to know someone that kept a squirt gun full of amonia on his bike, did wonders for stoping attacking dogs, get it near their nose and they usually come to a very abrupt halt. The old fashioned "walking in a stream" works but most trackers tend to eventually find the scent by running the dogs up both sides of the stream. Sooner or later you gotta come out. It does slow them down though on a 50 50 chance that they choose the wrong way first. I talked to one man a long time ago that got away from the dogs by walking into a stream, then backtracking the same trail to an area he had seen earlier where he used his staff to vault off the trail and down a drop of about 10 feet. The trackers spent all that time following both sides of the stream in both directions that he got a clean break in the trail. He was waiting for the tracking crew in the truck, asleep, when they finally gave up and came home. Big Dave * SLMR 2.1a * Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! --- WM v3.10/92-0203 # Origin: Daybreak Mail System - *HST/V32* - 305-771-0041 (1:369/3) * Origin: EchoGate! (9:2500/0.0) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 82 of 91 - 76 + 83 Rcv From : Jerry Ebert 9:2400/900 Tue 08 Feb 94 07:08 To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД JM> Hello All! JM> Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs JM> in this area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable JM> information on eluding search dogs. JM> JM> Thanks! JM JM> John Mudge John, Try cayenne pepper, but not on your own dog. It will work for ground sniffing dogs but not for air sniffers. Blood hounds sniff the ground. German sheppards sniff the air. For air sniffers use ammonia. The only thing that I know of that stops to all dogs is the sent of a female in heat. The male dogs will become agitated and the females in the pack will try to head them off. Jerry * OLX 2.1 TD * Only people can defend freedom, it isn't a government job --- WM v3.10/92-0508 * Origin: THE BULLET BOX / SURV NET, So. Pasadena CA (9:2400/900) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 83 of 91 - 82 From : Jerry Ebert 9:2400/900 Tue 08 Feb 94 07:48 To : Terry Buyers Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД TB> In a msg on , John Mudge of 9:2500/0 writes: TB>JM> Hello All! TB>JM> TB>JM> Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking TB>JM> dogs in this area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, TB>JM> reliable information on eluding search dogs. TB> TB> Besides all the 'fox tricks' to confuse your trail, like taking to TB> the trees and doubling back, water, the best way is to drop TB> something that will destroy t sense of smell. Pepper, gasoline, TB> anything similar. TB> TB> But if you got dogs chasing ya, it's deep kimchee and time for a TB> traditional Red Army style ambush. TB> TB> On the humorous side, one of the local escapees hauled bootie TB> through a farmer's back fourty and tipped over a beehive stack on TB> the way by. The dog were not amused. Terry, A good handler will put his dogs back on the trail regardless of what you do, except of coarse, if you merge with a group of other people. Pepper, garlic, etc. will delay the dogs for some time. They will be able to resume only after you are long gone from the area. Gasoline and similar syntnetic substances will cause onle a minor delay if the handler takes the dogs around it. These subatances do not have a long term effect on the dogs. There is always ammonia. Dogs can track ammonia (ammonium hydroxide). It is a natural substance produced by the body. It evaporates through the skin. Electronic equipment onboard helicopters can also track ammonia. The body produces only a small amount. If you use large quantities (a cup full) it has the same effect as merging with a large group of people. For both dogs and electronics it can be thought of as sensory overload. An ambush would be difficult. It would be effective if properly planned. Keep in mind that a search party may contain a lot of people, most of which will be pretty spread out. In the dirty tricks department (bee hives, etc.), the effect may be comical to you, but not to them. They would probably not be very anxious to try to follow you with dogs again. I doubt if they would want to even put trackers in the field. Jerry * OLX 2.1 TD * Only people can defend freedom, it isn't a government job --- WM v3.10/92-0508 * Origin: THE BULLET BOX / SURV NET, So. Pasadena CA (9:2400/900) Message #2636 board "Survival Oriented" Date : 07-Feb-94 09:57 From : Dave Paxton To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? JM>Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs in this JM>area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable information on eludin JM>search dogs. Hmmm, very interesting question John. I have very little experience with eluding hounds. However, I do remember something about pouring good strong household amonia on the ground in your tracks ruining their nose for a couple of hours. I se to know someone that kept a squirt gun full of amonia on his bike, did wonders for stoping attacking dogs, get it near their nose and they usually come to a very abrupt halt. The old fashioned "walking in a stream" works but most trackers tend to eventually find the scent by running the dogs up both sides of the stream. Sooner or later you gotta come out. It does slow them down though on a 50 50 chance that they choose the wrong way first. I talked to one man a long time ago that got away from the dogs by walking into a stream, then backtracking the same trail to an area he had seen earlier where he used his staff to vault off the trail and down a drop of about 10 feet. The trackers spent all that time following both sides of the stream in both directions that he got a clean break in the trail. He was waiting for the tracking crew in the truck, asleep, when they finally gave up and came home. Big Dave * SLMR 2.1a * Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! --- WM v3.10/92-0203 # Origin: Daybreak Mail System - *HST/V32* - 305-771-0041 (1:369/3) * Origin: EchoGate! (9:2500/0.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #3145 board "Survival Oriented" Date : 06-Feb-94 23:03 From : Terry Buyers To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? In a msg on , John Mudge of 9:2500/0 writes: JM> Hello All! JM> Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking JM> dogs in this area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, JM> reliable information on eluding search dogs. Besides all the 'fox tricks' to confuse your trail, like taking to the trees, doubling back, water, the best way is to drop something that will destroy their sense of smell. Pepper, gasoline, anything similar. But if you got dogs chasing ya, it's deep kimchee and time for a traditional, Red Army style ambush. On the humorous side, one of the local escapees hauled bootie through a farmer's back fourty and tipped over a beehive stack on the way by. The dogs were not amused. --- Squish v1.01 * Origin: Schrodinger's Catbox(803)652-3760 PRNet/SC SURVNet (9:2400/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #3148 board "Survival Oriented" Date : 07-Feb-94 14:10 From : Kirk Dehaan To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? -> Hello All! -> -> Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs i -> area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable information on -> search dogs. -> -> Thanks! -> -> John Mudge -> -> --- FMail 0.96в -> * Origin: -->point MUDGE bbs * V.32b * Shelton, WA USA<-- (9:2500 John, Not sure if it REALLY works but Cayenne (sp?) pepper is supposed to screw up their sense of smell. I know it works on dog attacks as I've seen it used on a Rott which had another dog in it's jaws. A liberal sprinkling on the eyes and nose made him let go FAST! It's possible that if you sprinkle it along a trail that you are walking on the dog will pick it up as your smell will follow right into the pepper. Now the next question is...do tracking dogs pick up the smell from the air or from the ground or both? And as I re-read the original message I find that I didn't answer the question you posed. Hope it's helpful nonetheless. Kirk --- WM v3.10/92-0010 * Origin: The Rising Storm BBS in California 408-379-4329 (9:2300/0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #4595 board "Survival Oriented" Date : 08-Feb-94 07:08 From : Jerry Ebert To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? JM> Hello All! JM> Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs JM> in this area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable JM> information on eluding search dogs. JM> JM> Thanks! JM JM> John Mudge John, Try cayenne pepper, but not on your own dog. It will work for ground sniffing dogs but not for air sniffers. Blood hounds sniff the ground. German sheppards sniff the air. For air sniffers use ammonia. The only thing that I know of that stops to all dogs is the sent of a female in heat. The male dogs will become agitated and the females in the pack will try to head them off. Jerry * OLX 2.1 TD * Only people can defend freedom, it isn't a government job --- WM v3.10/92-0508 * Origin: THE BULLET BOX / SURV NET, So. Pasadena CA (9:2400/900) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #4596 board "Survival Oriented" Date : 08-Feb-94 07:48 From : Jerry Ebert To : Terry Buyers Subj : Dogs? TB> In a msg on , John Mudge of 9:2500/0 writes: TB>JM> Hello All! TB>JM> TB>JM> Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking TB>JM> dogs in this area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, TB>JM> reliable information on eluding search dogs. TB> TB> Besides all the 'fox tricks' to confuse your trail, like taking to TB> the trees and doubling back, water, the best way is to drop TB> something that will destroy t sense of smell. Pepper, gasoline, TB> anything similar. TB> TB> But if you got dogs chasing ya, it's deep kimchee and time for a TB> traditional Red Army style ambush. TB> TB> On the humorous side, one of the local escapees hauled bootie TB> through a farmer's back fourty and tipped over a beehive stack on TB> the way by. The dog were not amused. Terry, A good handler will put his dogs back on the trail regardless of what you do, except of coarse, if you merge with a group of other people. Pepper, garlic, etc. will delay the dogs for some time. They will be able to resume only after you are long gone from the area. Gasoline and similar syntnetic substances will cause onle a minor delay if the handler takes the dogs around it. These subatances do not have a long term effect on the dogs. There is always ammonia. Dogs can track ammonia (ammonium hydroxide). It is a natural substance produced by the body. It evaporates through the skin. Electronic equipment onboard helicopters can also track ammonia. The body produces only a small amount. If you use large quantities (a cup full) it has the same effect as merging with a large group of people. For both dogs and electronics it can be thought of as sensory overload. An ambush would be difficult. It would be effective if properly planned. Keep in mind that a search party may contain a lot of people, most of which will be pretty spread out. In the dirty tricks department (bee hives, etc.), the effect may be comical to you, but not to them. They would probably not be very anxious to try to follow you with dogs again. I doubt if they would want to even put trackers in the field. Jerry * OLX 2.1 TD * Only people can defend freedom, it isn't a government job --- WM v3.10/92-0508 * Origin: THE BULLET BOX / SURV NET, So. Pasadena CA (9:2400/900) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (446) Tue 8 Feb 94 11:01 Rcvd: Sat 12 Feb 10:23 By: Paul Macgregor To: John Mudge Re: Dogs? St: Rcvd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- AREA:SURVIVALIST JM-Hello All! JM-Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs in this -area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable information on eludin -search dogs. Yeah, the guys here use black pepper, skunk scent, and some find a bitch in heat. They gather the menstruation on old rags and save them for a couple months. I am told that it drives the tracking dog nuts-o. Haven't tried any myself, as I haven't been on the run (yet) ;+}.... JM-Thanks! You are most welcome....;+} The WEE Scot Paul KC5AIQ ю QMPro 1.02 41-3175 ю All warfare is based on deception. So is politics!!! --- FMail 0.96в # Origin: -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA USA<-- (9:2500/0) * Origin: EchoGate! (1:352/111.0) @GPTH: 2500/0 @GATE: 1:352/111.0@fidonet 2d5c8657 @SEEN-BY: 352/111 369/3 @PATH: 352/111 Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 91 of 108 - 81 From : mike hicks 9:2400/310 Wed 09 Feb 94 09:26 To : Terry Buyers Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД Terry Buyers was heard to say to John Mudge During the Boston Tea Party: TB> In a msg on , John Mudge of 9:2500/0 writes: JM> Hello All! JM> Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking JM> dogs in this area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, JM> reliable information on eluding search dogs. TB> Besides all the 'fox tricks' to confuse your trail, like taking to the TB> trees, doubling back, water, the best way is to drop something that TB> will destroy their sense of smell. Pepper, gasoline, anything similar. TB> I used to train drug/tracking dogs with one of the best in the business. There are no real"tricks" but dogs are dogs, and can be confused. Re-crossing your own tracks will sometimes confuse them. Crossing tracks of other animals will sometimes confuse them. But, I have seen good dogs track THROUGH a herd of cows and be on track when they came out the other side. But the best advice is to stand still when you are caught. It saves on the bandaids. Well trained dogs will drop to a sit and guard the prisoner till the handler catches up, unless the prisoner moves or otherwise threatens the dog. Good luck. ... Peace thorugh superior firepower, 5 in naval guns anyone? --- FMail 0.96в * Origin: Mike's Freedom's_Voice freq freedom 602-832-4479 (9:2400/310) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 99 of 108 Rcv Loc From : Paul Macgregor 9:2500/0 Tue 08 Feb 94 11:01 To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД JM-Hello All! JM-Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs in this -area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable information on eludin -search dogs. Yeah, the guys here use black pepper, skunk scent, and some find a bitch in heat. They gather the menstruation on old rags and save them for a couple months. I am told that it drives the tracking dog nuts-o. Haven't tried any myself, as I haven't been on the run (yet) ;+}.... JM-Thanks! You are most welcome....;+} The WEE Scot Paul KC5AIQ ю QMPro 1.02 41-3175 ю All warfare is based on deception. So is politics!!! --- FMail 0.96в * Origin: -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA USA<-- (9:2500/0) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 90 of 100 - 81 + 91 Rcv From : Gary Nixon 9:2400/310.1 Thu 10 Feb 94 07:01 To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД At TSOF, John Mudge was heard to say: JM>Hello All! JM>Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of JM>tracking dogs in this area, I was wondering if anyone had any JM>good, reliable information on eluding search dogs. JM>Thanks! JM>John Mudge JM>--- FMail 0.96в JM> * Origin: -->point MUDGE bbs * V.32b * Shelton, WA USA<-- JM>(9:2500/0) Take the dog out of the equation...or change your odor. I've eluded dogs playing war games with my brother. Using stuff called Bullsh*tters Spray. A gag gift can of stuff that smells like sh*t. Mask your odor real well, but a b*tch to get off. (g) Gary --- FMail 0.96в * Origin: True Sons Of Freedom- (602)898-1784 (9:2400/310.1) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 91 of 100 - 90 From : Terry Buyers 9:2400/7 Thu 10 Feb 94 09:30 To : mike hicks Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД In a msg on , mike hicks of 9:2400/310 writes: mh> But the best advice is to stand still when you are caught. It mh> saves on the bandaids. Well trained dogs will drop to a sit mh> and guard the prisoner till the handler catches up, unless mh> the prisoner moves or otherwise threatens the dog. If I have a real incentive to get away, the dog is history, and so, probably, is the handler. 50% of the pair is edible, unless your name happens to be Donner or Dahlmer. 8-) --- Squish v1.01 * Origin: Schrodinger's Catbox(803)652-3760 PRNet/SC SURVNet (9:2400/7) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 101 of 106 - 80 Rcv From : Guy Putnam 9:2400/1 Sun 13 Feb 94 23:26 To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД -=> Quoting Paul Macgregor to John Mudge <=- JM-Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs in this -area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable information on eludin -search dogs. PM> Yeah, the guys here use black pepper, skunk scent, and some find a PM> bitch in heat. Shoot them with a suppressed pistol or rifle. ... Silencers?..You wouldn't drive your car without a MUFFLER, right? --- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR] * Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 * H16 (9:2400/1) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 94 of 95 - 79 Rcv From : Roeland M.J. Meyer 9:2500/163.1 Wed 09 Feb 94 22:15 To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД Hello John, >===================================================================== >Briefly, on Saturday February 05 1994, >in Surv: Exchange of Survival Oriented In, >when John Mudge(9:2500/0) said to All, >concerning "Dogs?": >===================================================================== JM> Hello All! JM> Having recently witnessed much more widespread use of tracking dogs in JM> this area, I was wondering if anyone had any good, reliable information JM> on eluding search dogs. JM> Thanks! JM> John Mudge An old Cajun trick one of my wifes relations told me about was liberal use of Cayenne Pepper on your back-trail. It will flat destroy a dogs sense of smell, permanently. So will Black Pepper. Roeland What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand? --- GoldED 2.40 * Origin: The Silver Saddle Saloon, CO, (719)630-7930 (9:2500/163.1) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 98 of 102 - 82 + 102 Rcv From : Guy Putnam 9:2400/1 Sun 20 Feb 94 13:27 To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД -=> Quoting John Mudge to Guy Putnam <=- PM>> Yeah, the guys here use black pepper, skunk scent, and some find a PM>> bitch in heat. GP> Shoot them with a suppressed pistol or rifle. JM> This might be a good use for an air pistol....unfortunately, we are JM> not always as well prepared as we might wish when we suddenly find JM> ourselves being pursued by tracking dogs.... Its easier to pack around than a bitch-in-heat! I suspect the air pistol would only make an attacking dog more angry. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR] * Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 * H16 (9:2400/1) Д [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ДДДДДДДД SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Д Msg : 98 of 100 - 92 Rcv From : Thomas Bird 9:2400/88 Sat 26 Feb 94 03:55 To : John Mudge Subj : Dogs? ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД Check out what John Mudge wrote on 24 Feb 94 12:04:02: PM>>> Yeah, the guys here use black pepper, skunk scent, and some find a PM>>> bitch in heat. GP>> Shoot them with a suppressed pistol or rifle. I particularly like mines. You may get lucky and get the handler with a mine. GP> I suspect the air pistol would only make an attacking dog more angry. Bloodhounds do not track for anger. Believe it or not, they track because of some love of human scent. Recently Discovery Channel did a special on Dogs and tracking. A bloodhound will follow the scent of a human out of some misplaced and unearned desire to find that human. When they find the person of the scent, they will lick them whether they are lost child, skier, hiker, or escaped murderer. JM> That seems to be the consensus. Cayenne pepper is something we need JM> to carry I guess.... I still like booby traps and mines. Redwing --- DLG Pro v1.0/DLGMail * Origin: Bayou Self BBS Chalmette, LA USA >=SURVNET=> (9:2400/88)