Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 126 of 137 - 38 + 127 Rcv From : Guy Putnam 1:382/91 Mon 04 Jan 93 19:13 To : John Mudge Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting John Mudge to Guy Putnam <=- GP> What kind of guns are you interested in knowing about? Do you GP> already have a survival aresenal started? Are you looking for GP> suggestions? JM> I am interested in the chinese rifle I have heard you mention, but JM> primarily in light hunting weapons. The Chinese SKS is the cheapest battle rifle available, around $150 or maybe less. It's reliable, but not as accurate as $600-$2000 infantry rifles. The SKS round (same as AK-47) is excellent for hunting deer sized game with, when you use soft-point bullets. Military bullets work well on turkey. They would be the choice if you had to take small game with it, like rabbits & such. JM> There used to exist small pack JM> rifles with wire-frame stocks. They came in .22, .410 shotgun, a JM> .22/.410 over-under, and possibly a 30-30/.410 over under. How good JM> would the 30-30/.410 over-under be for hunting? As I recall, they JM> were all single shot. Springfield Armory in IL makes the M6 survival rifle, as you described above. The lower barrel is 410 ga shotgun. The upper barrel comes in either .22, .22 magnum, or 22 hornet. Probably .22 would be best choice, unless you had to hunt larger game with it, then I would suggest the .22 hornet. I don't see why anyone would want .22 mag. The ammo costs nearly as much as the hornet, & it's less powerful. If you're interested in this one, better start looking NOW!. I understand that Springfield Armory just went of business, maybe. There should still be some on dealers shelves. Probably runs around $200. The only other gun I know of in this type is the Savage M24. It's a full stock gun & does not fold up. It's fairly heavy, too. Savage offers the shotgun barrel in 20 ga & 12 ga. The top rifle barrel is offered in .22, .223 & 30-30. These run around $350-$400. I bought an M24 in .223/12 ga. The 30-30/12 ga would be a good choice, too. The shotgun barrel has the interchangeable chokes, & they send 3 chokes with it. They offer it in a synthetic camo stock. By all means, get this stock. If wood stocks get wet & warp, they can temporarily bend the barrel enough to throw your aim way off, until it drys out. JM> What else would you recommend for survival hunting? Well, that depends. Do you have a place to go, or, or you just "heading for the woods?" If you are going to be drifting around with a pack, the M6 would probably be about all you could carry. If you have a survival retreat, several bolt action rifles would be quite good for hunting. Also, scoped infantry ("assault") rifles do quite well for hunting, except they are heavier than bolt actions. However, for hunting in a hostile environment, they should do best. The over-under guns wouldn't be good if they were the only weapon you were carrying. They make a poor self defense weapon against multiple attackers. JM> I have also been JM> considering survival fishing eequipment...most likely a 3-1/2" mesh JM> short gill net. Any ideas along these lines? Back in '78 I bought a bunch of the Air Force survival fishing kits that happened to be available at the time. They were about $20, and were in a plastic case that fit in your pocket. They are stuffed with rolls of line, flies, lures, hooks & other goodies. I also have a survival gill net I bought from Brigade Quartermasters. I think it's British military surplus. I've got a few snares too, but I understand they take a lot of practice & skill to use. I suppose I'll start learning when I need to. I think it's more important to plan for defense, before stockpiling hunting guns. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 [NR] # Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2.0) * Origin: SurvNet Echogate (512) 282-3941 (1:382/91 <-> 9:1992/2) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 177 of 189 - 138 + 178 Rcv From : Guy Putnam 9:1992/2 Thu 07 Jan 93 22:50 To : John Mudge Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting John Mudge to Guy Putnam <=- Hi John! JM> Answering a msg of , from Guy Putnam to John JM> Mudge: JM> Thanks for the additional info on guns, and on the water purifiers! JM> Also, in answer to your questions about whether I was just going to JM> head for the woods....I did years ago, and still live in them. There JM> are two roads between me and the Pacific Ocean, but they are a hundred JM> miles apart, and contain unmapped/unsurveyed heavily mountainous JM> territory as well as the only remaining temperate rain forest in the JM> world. Deer, elk, cougar, bear, goats are fairly common here...people JM> are not. I can walk for days in the mountains here and never see JM> anyone. We even have several glaciers in the area. The area ranges JM> from sea-level to about 10,000 feet within a few miles. Just north of JM> me, rivers average about 10 miles apart. My goodness........no wonder you are "into" self sufficiency! As far a having a survival retreat, you've got it made. How many acres do you have? I would assume then that you already have some guns. Since you are in a fixed location, you've got the luxury of being able to have defense & hunting guns. How many in your family? For defensive guns, it would be best to be sure & get some .308 infantry rifles, since you have bear & elk in the area. Also, some of the lighter .223 rifles like the AR-15 (but not Mini-14) would be called for, too....since you are in a wooded area & ranges aren't so far. Large caliber pistols, like .45 ACP would probably be best in your area, in the unlikely event you had to defend against bear of cougar. I hope you've been hunting deer & elk all these years to hone your survival hunting skills, since that is probably what you will have to survive on. As far as an over/under goes, I would pick the 30-30 over 12 ga. Savage. That way you could get the big game with the rifle or the shotgun with slugs or buckshot. You could use birdshot for grouse, turkey or whatever large birds you might have. Survival hunting small birds, like dove or the small varieties of quail with a shotgun is not a prudent expenditure of ammunition. If you don't have any large birds, then it might be best to just go with a rifle. If you want any further suggestions, you need to tell me how many people are in you family, how many acres, what type of house & what it's constructed of, and if you already have any guns. Maybe also, how far you are from the nearest towns & their population. Sounds like a nice place..........for a SurvNet _party_! ... "As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun."- T. Jefferson --- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 [NR] # Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2.0) * Origin: SurvNet Gate System (512) 282-3941 (9:1992/2) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 178 of 189 - 177 + 179 From : Ken Twomey 9:1992/9 Fri 08 Jan 93 15:37 To : Guy Putnam Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GP> -=> Quoting John Mudge to Guy Putnam <=- GP> GP> GP> What kind of guns are you interested in knowing about? Do you GP> GP> already have a survival aresenal started? Are you looking for GP> GP> suggestions? GP> GP> JM> I am interested in the chinese rifle I have heard you mention, but GP> JM> primarily in light hunting weapons. GP> GP>The Chinese SKS is the cheapest battle rifle available, around $150 GP>or maybe less. It's reliable, but not as accurate as $600-$2000 GP>infantry rifles. The SKS round (same as AK-47) is excellent for GP>hunting deer sized game with, when you use soft-point bullets. GP>Military bullets work well on turkey. They would be the choice if GP>you had to take small game with it, like rabbits & such. GP> GP> JM> There used to exist small pack GP> JM> rifles with wire-frame stocks. They came in .22, .410 shotgun, a GP> JM> .22/.410 over-under, and possibly a 30-30/.410 over under. How good GP> JM> would the 30-30/.410 over-under be for hunting? As I recall, they GP> JM> were all single shot. GP> GP>Springfield Armory in IL makes the M6 survival rifle, as you GP>described above. The lower barrel is 410 ga shotgun. The upper GP>barrel comes in either .22, .22 magnum, or 22 hornet. Probably GP>.22 would be best choice, unless you had to hunt larger game with GP>it, then I would suggest the .22 hornet. I don't see why anyone GP>would want .22 mag. The ammo costs nearly as much as the hornet, GP>& it's less powerful. GP> GP>If you're interested in this one, better start looking NOW!. I GP>understand that Springfield Armory just went of business, maybe. GP>There should still be some on dealers shelves. Probably runs GP>around $200. GP> GP>The only other gun I know of in this type is the Savage M24. GP>It's a full stock gun & does not fold up. It's fairly heavy, GP>too. Savage offers the shotgun barrel in 20 ga & 12 ga. The top GP>rifle barrel is offered in .22, .223 & 30-30. These run around GP>$350-$400. GP> GP>I bought an M24 in .223/12 ga. The 30-30/12 ga would be a good GP>choice, too. The shotgun barrel has the interchangeable chokes, GP>& they send 3 chokes with it. They offer it in a synthetic camo GP>stock. By all means, get this stock. If wood stocks get wet & GP>warp, they can temporarily bend the barrel enough to throw your GP>aim way off, until it drys out. GP> GP> JM> What else would you recommend for survival hunting? GP> GP>Well, that depends. Do you have a place to go, or, or you just GP>"heading for the woods?" If you are going to be drifting around GP>with a pack, the M6 would probably be about all you could carry. GP>If you have a survival retreat, several bolt action rifles would GP>be quite good for hunting. Also, scoped infantry ("assault") GP>rifles do quite well for hunting, except they are heavier than GP>bolt actions. However, for hunting in a hostile environment, GP>they should do best. GP> GP>The over-under guns wouldn't be good if they were the only weapon GP>you were carrying. They make a poor self defense weapon against GP>multiple attackers. GP> GP> JM> I have also been GP> JM> considering survival fishing eequipment...most likely a 3-1/2" mesh GP> JM> short gill net. Any ideas along these lines? GP> GP>Back in '78 I bought a bunch of the Air Force survival fishing GP>kits that happened to be available at the time. They were about GP>$20, and were in a plastic case that fit in your pocket. They GP>are stuffed with rolls of line, flies, lures, hooks & other GP>goodies. I also have a survival gill net I bought from Brigade GP>Quartermasters. I think it's British military surplus. GP> GP>I've got a few snares too, but I understand they take a lot of GP>practice & skill to use. I suppose I'll start learning when I GP>need to. GP> GP>I think it's more important to plan for defense, before GP>stockpiling hunting guns. GP>--- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 [NR] GP> # Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2.0) ___ X KingQWK 1.05 X "A 'Patriot' is more than a missile" --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: /\Oregon Desert/\(503)475-3056(v32b)/\ (9:1992/9) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 179 of 189 - 178 Rcv From : Ken Twomey 9:1992/9 Fri 08 Jan 93 15:43 To : John Mudge Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JM>Also, in answer to your questions about whether I was just going to head for JM>the woods....I did years ago, and still live in them. JM>There are two roads between me and the Pacific Ocean, but JM>they are a hundred miles apart, and contain JM>unmapped/unsurveyed heavily mountainous territory as well JM>as the only remaining temperate rain forest in the world. JM>Deer, elk, cougar, bear, goats are fairly common JM>here...people are not. I can walk for days in the JM>mountains here and never see anyone. We even have several JM>glaciers in the area. The area ranges from sea-level to JM>about 10,000 feet within a few miles. Just north of me, JM>rivers average about 10 miles apart. Can I come live with you. It sounds like heaven, especially the part about a long walk in the woods. To add about the gun part. What do you want from a gun, to shoot man or beast? In what enviorment? How much do you want to spend. For light hunting and man killing(when you must) its hard to beat the AR-15. For home defense withing the walls, a pump 12, like a Mossberg. For serious man and beast the H&K 308. What is the most you want from your gun????? ___ X KingQWK 1.05 X Prepareing for the dawn not the dark..... --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: /\Oregon Desert/\(503)475-3056(v32b)/\ (9:1992/9) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 324 of 330 - 323 From : Terry Buyers 9:1992/2 Wed 20 Jan 93 23:03 To : Guy Putnam Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > GP>you going to get parts? > > DV> I agree with you here, you can get a Sks for $150.. > ahum through > DV> me..:) > > Through me, too!! :-) > Ack! Refurbs and unissued SKSs sell for about $110 retail. Barreled actions are about $30. Cut receiver parts guns are also cheap. And check places like SARCo and Gun Parts for specials. Bought a bunch of op rods for resale recently for under $5 each. I think Gun Parts had a bunch of new wood for cheap. I'd at least get one op rod and spring, a couple of firing pins and springs, a spare bolt and extractor, and the assorted pins and springs and possibly a spare sear and hammer set (and fit all the parts before storing them in grease). If new semi-autos are Clintonated, spare parts will become impossible to get. --- Opus-CBCS 1.10b # Origin: Schrodinger's Catbox(803)652-3760 PRNetSC SURVNet (1:3624/7.0) * Origin: SurvNet Gate System (512) 282-3941 (9:1992/2) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 323 of 330 - 322 + 324 From : David Hart 9:1992/166 Wed 20 Jan 93 07:39 To : Guy Putnam Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GP> DV> ...and can do a lot of things to it to make it every bit as GP> DV> good as anything else. The first thing one might consider doing, GP> DV> is converting it to take a AK mag. Then you could buy one of the GP> DV> Advanced Tec. folding stocks, and you have a heck of a simi. If GP> DV> one where to acquire a trigger group This would be great with a rifle imported before the import ban but very illegal on a rifle imported after the ban. Just glad mine is pre import ban. * OLX 2.1 TD * The right to bear arms is the right to be free. --- GEcho 1.00/beta+ * Origin: Pride of the Plains (806)983-3341 Floydada,TX 9600 (9:1992/166) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 322 of 330 - 321 + 323 From : Todd Preston 9:1992/9 Wed 20 Jan 93 00:00 To : Guy Putnam Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GP> TB> But I prefer a real caliber in a battle rifle... GP>Well, I do too......but it doesn't hurt to keep a few mouse guns >around. In fact, the .223 is pretty mean with soft points! Guy: Terry So the SKS, AK47, AR15, and Mini-14 all fire .223 ammo? Are these weapons similar to the 9mm autos, that need to be maintained or serviced more than "once a year at Christmas time?" How field serviceable/repairable is the SKS? The military ammo is that full jacketed "darn near armor piercing" stuff? I heard someone say that 223 would be a pretty good stopper using hunting ammo. Would this mean that the wound channel ballistics would be much better using soft pointed or hollow pointed ammo, because instead of just flying through you, they would mushroom and fragment? So for practicing and plinking, the "military ammo" would be cool, but for killing game the soft nosed is superior? How available is the soft nosed ammo in bulk? Are the "military ammo" brass compatible with reloading into soft nosed? Karen: I feel like you today, asking basic questions. I only hope mine are as intelligent as yours! Todd * SLMR 2.1a * Next time you wave, use ALL of your fingers! --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: /\Oregon Desert/\(503)475-3056(v32b)/\ (9:1992/9) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 321 of 330 - 309 + 322 From : Todd Preston 9:1992/9 Wed 20 Jan 93 00:00 To : Dean Varner Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DV>I agree with you here, you can get a Sks for $150.. ahum through >me..:) and can do a lot of things to it to make it every bit as >good as anything else. The first thing one might consider doing, >is converting it to take a AK mag. Then you could buy one of the >Advanced Tec. folding stocks, and you have a heck of a simi. If >one where to acquire a trigger group you could also have it if >the need ever arises, to convert to the big A (of course this >would have to be done after the collapse of the government so as not to >be agianst the law or is it legel to have if it isn't installed.) Dean: Are the above described modifications userable, or best left to gun people? Ref the conversion to the AK mag. I take it then that the magazine is the combustion chamber where the round is fired? I thought that the word magazine was interchangable with the word clip. What is the advantage of a folding stock? (size, packability?) What is a simi? * SLMR 2.1a * Preserve Wildlife...Pickle a raccoon. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: /\Oregon Desert/\(503)475-3056(v32b)/\ (9:1992/9) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 309 of 330 - 308 + 321 From : Jim Watson 9:1992/0 Tue 19 Jan 93 22:19 To : Guy Putnam Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GP> barrel isn't stepped down in stages, I don't know. The Mini-14 GP> is well known for opening up it's groups to a foot or two at 100 GP> yds. when a 20-40 round string is fired. When an AR-15 gets hot, GP> it might open the group up another 1/2 inch, then stops. I hear GP> the Mini-14 groups just get bigger as it gets hotter! JW> Haven't had that happen with my stainless version. Not checked with JW> the blued version. GP> Hope you aren't in for a rude surprise. Only own stainless, so don't care -:) JW> combined), turkey, you name it. Many of those JW> shots were in excess of JW> 250yds, and none of 'em ran more than 50 feet. And we are talking JW> Kansas grain feed monster deer... GP> So you're making 250 yd shoulder shots with .223 & they are all GP> falling like a bag of bricks? Wish the people I hunt with could GP> say that for their .270's on dog-sized central TX deer! Hey, I hit this one Texas buck with a 7mm Mag.... I really do believe some of those turkeys have found a steroid supply.... -:) JW> NEVER had that happen with good reloads. GP> How many thousands or rounds have you fired your Mini, without GP> cleaning? Maybe a thousand or so, not much more than that. And only 'cuz we were fooling with it over a 4 day weekend trying to burn up some ammo. Now think about that for a minute. Best clips I've seen for non-jamming are the 20 round versions. In real life, you aren't going to go through 50 of 'em before having time to do minimal maintenance on your weapon. NO weapon can be expected to do that, shoot straight, and perform reliably. So it's a mute point... --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: (9:1992/0) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 308 of 330 - 307 + 309 From : Guy Putnam 9:1992/2 Tue 19 Jan 93 00:24 To : Dean Varner Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting Dean Varner to Guy Putnam <=- GP>I would _strongly_ recommend even the battle tested SKS rifle GP>over the Mini-14, unless the Mini owner carefully field tested GP>his rifle with a lot of rapid fire. The SKS doesn't group all GP>that great, but at least it doesn't open up as it gets hot. GP>Also, the Mini-14 looks rather delicate, to me....and where are GP>you going to get parts? DV> I agree with you here, you can get a Sks for $150.. ahum through DV> me..:) Through me, too!! :-) DV> ...and can do a lot of things to it to make it every bit as DV> good as anything else. The first thing one might consider doing, DV> is converting it to take a AK mag. Then you could buy one of the DV> Advanced Tec. folding stocks, and you have a heck of a simi. If DV> one where to acquire a trigger group A friend of mine had a part break, so he ordered a new trigger group from Keings Firearms. It's got a trigger pull more like an American sporting rifle, than a Mack truck, like many SKS's. DV> ...you could also have it if DV> the need ever arises, to convert to the big A (of course this DV> would have to be done after the collapse of the government so as not DV> to be agianst the law or is it legel to have if it isn't installed.) Probably is "illegal," or will be soon. DV> Now I used a M-16 in the service, and I prayed everyday that I DV> was in, that I wouldn't have to us it in combat situation. They DV> are in my opine not that dependable. M16's aren't like that anymore. They are finely tuned rifles, ever since the first one I got in the late 70's. DV> If you don't have $700 dollars to spare, and you don't hava DV> gun, get a SKS so that you at least have something. Ditto, ditto, ditto.....................! DV> They are DV> not going to go down in value so you have a good investment to. If they go down much more, they will be free! --- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 [NR] * Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2.0) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 307 of 330 - 306 + 308 From : Guy Putnam 9:1992/2 Tue 19 Jan 93 00:17 To : Dean Varner Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting Dean Varner to Guy Putnam <=- GP>The few Mini-14's I've shot, jammed too much. Nothing "serious", GP>just the bolt sometimes doesn't close all the way & I have to GP>push the bolt handle down........just enough to get you killed! DV> My cousin's Ervine Johnson M-1 was doing this... Yes, I've seen M1 carbines do it a lot. Seems like the Garand action works best with larger cartridges. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 [NR] * Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2.0) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 306 of 330 - 305 + 307 From : Guy Putnam 9:1992/2 Tue 19 Jan 93 00:15 To : Jim Watson Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting Jim Watson to Guy Putnam <=- GP> The few Mini-14's I've shot, jammed too much. Nothing "serious", GP> just the bolt sometimes doesn't close all the way & I have to JW> Never had mine do it, and it's been through several thousand rounds. Sounds like you are one of the lucky ones. JW> I have had the case ends blow off of some cheap reloads, but that's JW> the extent of it. I've had M16's feed some of the trashiest reloads imaginable, with the shoulders pushed back. GP> The gun is not built to take heat, like the AR-15. Maybe the GP> barrel isn't stepped down in stages, I don't know. The Mini-14 GP> is well known for opening up it's groups to a foot or two at 100 GP> yds. when a 20-40 round string is fired. When an AR-15 gets hot, GP> it might open the group up another 1/2 inch, then stops. I hear GP> the Mini-14 groups just get bigger as it gets hotter! JW> Haven't had that happen with my stainless version. Not checked with JW> the blued version. Hope you aren't in for a rude surprise. GP> willing to do this everytime he wants one, then the rifle might GP> serve him well. However, most people buy them & put them in the GP> closet, waiting for the day their life may depend on the rifle. GP> A 24" group at 100 yds opens into a 6 foot group at 300 yds. JW> Biggest group I've seen after dumping a couple of 30 round clips JW> through it is 2.5" to 3". And part of that is me not really trying to JW> hold it down. Sounds like one of the "good ones." GP> It appears that the Mini-14 is best suited as a rabbit gun, and GP> intended to be used with it's factory supplied 5 rd. magazine. I GP> notice a lot of people have them. Maybe some of you have taken JW> Ha ha. Hell on deer (mine's killed more than all of our other guns JW> combined), turkey, you name it. Many of those shots were in excess of JW> 250yds, and none of 'em ran more than 50 feet. And we are talking JW> Kansas grain feed monster deer... So you're making 250 yd shoulder shots with .223 & they are all falling like a bag of bricks? Wish the people I hunt with could say that for their .270's on dog-sized central TX deer! GP> his rifle with a lot of rapid fire. The SKS doesn't group all GP> that great, but at least it doesn't open up as it gets hot. GP> Also, the Mini-14 looks rather delicate, to me....and where are GP> you going to get parts? JW> Where are you going to get parts for ANY firearm during a "problem" JW> time? Well, you can get military rifle parts, especially for the M16, all over any gun show & for cheap, shortly _before_ a "problem" time. How long do you think it would take to get parts from Ruger, & how much would they cost, compaired to M16? JW> Also, I would tend to believe that there are more mini's floating JW> around in the US than the SKS rifles, so parts should be easier to JW> find. If there are more Mini's than SKS's, it won't be for long! JW> Myself, well, I have extensive machine tools at the farm... -:) But most people don't. GP> rounds it would go. It started hanging up just a bit after 750 GP> rounds, to where you had to stop & push the bolt closed sometimes GP> (like you have to do on a _clean_ Mini). I strongly suspect that JW> NEVER had that happen with good reloads. How many thousands or rounds have you fired your Mini, without cleaning? JW> But.... I've got the original, pre-ranch version. Bought it the first JW> year they came out. Other than the scope mount problems on this JW> model, I'm in love with it... I know one person out of 50 that are happy with thiers, too. Many trash them after checking their grouping with a hot rifle. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 [NR] * Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2.0) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 305 of 330 - 304 + 306 From : Guy Putnam 9:1992/2 Tue 19 Jan 93 00:01 To : David Hart Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting David Hart to Guy Putnam <=- GP>The few Mini-14's I've shot, jammed too much. Nothing "serious", GP>just the bolt sometimes doesn't close all the way & I have to GP>push DH> the bolt handle down........just enough to get you killed! DH> I never had a jam with the one I had... Maybe it's just that the rifle does not like me! I had someone tell me their KAC-556 (select-fire version) never jammed, but I had to close the bolt with the handle 3-4 times. DH> ...but you were doing good to hit the side of a barn with it. DH> Of all the people I have talked to that DH> have owned Mini-14s only one has claimed to have got good accuracy DH> from it. That's the way it is with most people I've talked to. Way _too_ many people! GP>I would _strongly_ recommend even the battle tested SKS rifle GP>over the Mini-14, unless the Mini owner carefully field tested GP>his rifle with a lot of rapid fire. The SKS doesn't group all GP> that great, but at least it doesn't open up as it gets hot. DH> My SKS is far more accurate than any mini-14 I ever shot. I have no DH> complaints with it at all. I like mine, too. It groups a little wider than my M16's, but at that price.......so what? GP>Even better is an AR-15. They are running pretty cheap right GP>now, should be under $700. Wholesalers are running specials on GP>the AR-15 in the new offering chambered for 7.62x39. It should GP>be a little less. DH> Your budget must be a lot different than mine if you think AR-15s are DH> cheap. Well, I meant "cheap" compared to what it was when Colt stopped manufacturing it for awhile, or compared to what a Styer Aug costs, or other imported .223's. DH> I would love to have one especially in the CAR configuration DH> but I don't know where the money would come from. Visa, AMEX.......or a bank loan! :-) DH> Guess I will have to be satisfied with my pre importban SKS for now. Better than shaking a stick at'em! --- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 [NR] * Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2.0) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 304 of 330 - 303 + 305 From : Guy Putnam 9:1992/2 Mon 18 Jan 93 23:50 To : Terry Buyers Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting Terry Buyers to Guy Putnam <=- > the only guns that kept going in the jungle, even with > lack of > proper cleaning equipment, were the M-16 and the FAL. > Even the TB> There are L1A1 sporters on the market now. Century is also importing TB> spare parts kits. I've seen those advertised in Nationwide Sports. They look like parts guns, but the price is right. > now, should be under $700. Wholesalers are running specials > on > the AR-15 in the new offering chambered for 7.62x39. It > should TB> For that money you can get an L1A1, a parts kit, and a case of Santa TB> Barbara .308. FAL mags are a couple of bucks used, M-16 mags at least TB> $4. And .308 is better! TB> I have one old 180 series Mini14 that will digest almost anything TB> since I ran a reamer into the chamber. My 183 the the stock chamber is TB> just as fussy as you describe. It is a function of the tight, rather TB> than milspec, chamber. My CAR-15 (Olympic/SGW) is very tight TB> chambered. I had a parts gun with EA lower that had a sloppy chamber TB> that would feed almost anything. TB> But I prefer a real caliber in a battle rifle... Well, I do too......but it doesn't hurt to keep a few mouse guns around. In fact, the .223 is pretty mean with soft points! TB> My personal work weapons are: TB> L1A1 'sporter' - .308 TB> Interarms Mk X bolt action - .30-'06 with scope and bipod TB> Marlin Camp carbine - .45ACP - described above TB> Astra A-100 .45 ACP (SIG clone) or TB> Colt Series 80 1911A1 custom .45ACP satin nickel for wet situations TB> CZ-50 .32ACP (Walther variation made by CZ) boot gun Mossberg 590 12 TB> gauge parkerized - ghost ring sights and speedfeed synthetic stock. Sounds like you're covered, to me. TB> BTW: the Colt AR in 7.62 x 39 has been complained about for feed TB> problems. I imagine they will get those ironed out in short order. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 [NR] * Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2.0) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 302 of 330 - 301 + 303 From : Dean Varner 9:1992/2 Sat 16 Jan 93 04:16 To : Guy Putnam Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GP>I would _strongly_ recommend even the battle tested SKS rifle GP>over the Mini-14, unless the Mini owner carefully field tested GP>his rifle with a lot of rapid fire. The SKS doesn't group all GP>that great, but at least it doesn't open up as it gets hot. GP>Also, the Mini-14 looks rather delicate, to me....and where are GP>you going to get parts? I agree with you here, you can get a Sks for $150.. ahum through me..:) and can do a lot of things to it to make it every bit as good as anything else. The first thing one might consider doing, is converting it to take a AK mag. Then you could buy one of the Advanced Tec. folding stocks, and you have a heck of a simi. If one where to acquire a trigger group you could also have it if the need ever arises, to convert to the big A (of course this would have to be done after the collapse of the government so as not to be agianst the law or is it legel to have if it isn't installed.) You can add a scope(maybe even a lazer sight), grenade launcher, a 75 rd or 95rd drum, and a bipod. At 1250 rds for $100 dollars what else could you want, and you could do all this for less then either the M-16 or the Mini 14 and have a whole lot more, while still be supporting American business men who are true 2nd amendment supporters(as well as true entrepreneurs). Also a metal hand guard looks really tit on the wood stock or the folding . Now I used a M-16 in the service, and I prayed everyday that I was in, that I wouldn't have to us it in combat situation. They are in my opine not that dependable. I only qualified expert because I had the thing worked on right before I did so, otherwise I would have never made basic because the blan thing jammed so much (it was the extractor spring if I remember right). If you don't have $700 dollars to spare, and you don't hava gun, get a SKS so that you at least have something. They are not going to go down in value so you have a good investment to. In Blood and Health, Dean * SLMR 2.1a * One patriot plus 20 sheep, equals 1 dead and 20 slaves. --- Maximus 2.01wb # Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2) * Origin: SurvNet Gate System (512) 282-3941 (9:1992/2) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 285 of 330 - 275 + 301 From : Terry Buyers 1:3624/7 Sun 17 Jan 93 19:43 To : Jim Watson Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > where are > GP> you going to get parts? > > Where are you going to get parts for ANY firearm during > a "problem" time? And I'm pretty rough on my guns . > The hard workers (like my mini), tend to get thrown around > a bit inside the 4x4 tooling across the pastures, and scrambling > through the creeks. Some of the wholesalers I deal with on a regular enough basis to use first names talk about 20 - 30 _Thousand_ SKS rifles going through from late November to early this month. Oddly enough, while all of the guys at the Tucson store have at least one SKS, the only one we have here in South Carolina is the 'reload test gun' that has been blueprinted and a bull barrel mounted (what a pain in the tail that was!) for chrono and accuracy testing. I still feel that there are much better long guns on the current market for much less money. --- Opus-CBCS 1.10b * Origin: Schrodinger's Catbox(803)652-3760 PRNetSC SURVNet (1:3624/7.0) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 249 of 330 - 217 + 250 From : Guy Putnam 9:1992/2 Tue 12 Jan 93 12:22 To : Dave Skinner Subj : Survival Guns ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting Dave Skinner to Guy Putnam <=- GP> infantry rifles, since you have bear & elk in the area. Also, GP> some of the lighter .223 rifles like the AR-15 (but not Mini-14) DS> Why dont you like the Mini-14? Are you just ticked at ruger or is DS> there another reason? No, it has nothing to do with Brady Bill Ruger. The few Mini-14's I've shot, jammed too much. Nothing "serious", just the bolt sometimes doesn't close all the way & I have to push the bolt handle down........just enough to get you killed! The gun is not built to take heat, like the AR-15. Maybe the barrel isn't stepped down in stages, I don't know. The Mini-14 is well known for opening up it's groups to a foot or two at 100 yds. when a 20-40 round string is fired. When an AR-15 gets hot, it might open the group up another 1/2 inch, then stops. I hear the Mini-14 groups just get bigger as it gets hotter! A good friend of mine verified this when he had to go through something like 6 or more Mini-14's, before he finally got one that would hold a decent group when hot. I guess if a person is willing to do this everytime he wants one, then the rifle might serve him well. However, most people buy them & put them in the closet, waiting for the day their life may depend on the rifle. A 24" group at 100 yds opens into a 6 foot group at 300 yds. It appears that the Mini-14 is best suited as a rabbit gun, and intended to be used with it's factory supplied 5 rd. magazine. I notice a lot of people have them. Maybe some of you have taken them to the range & gotten them hot, to see the performance. If you haven't, better do it now. There's always someone telling me their Mini-14 does not jam. However, in the cases where I went out to try it, I always ended up reaching up to push the bolt closed several times. I would _strongly_ recommend even the battle tested SKS rifle over the Mini-14, unless the Mini owner carefully field tested his rifle with a lot of rapid fire. The SKS doesn't group all that great, but at least it doesn't open up as it gets hot. Also, the Mini-14 looks rather delicate, to me....and where are you going to get parts? Even better is an AR-15. They are running pretty cheap right now, should be under $700. Wholesalers are running specials on the AR-15 in the new offering chambered for 7.62x39. It should be a little less. This design (AR_15) has been combat tested all over the world. I've fired my M-16 carbine without cleaning it to see how many rounds it would go. It started hanging up just a bit after 750 rounds, to where you had to stop & push the bolt closed sometimes (like you have to do on a _clean_ Mini). I strongly suspect that a good dose of oil through the ejection port, onto the bolt carrier, would have kept it going up to 1,000. I'll try it, next time. If you watched the Contras closely, you would have noticed that the only guns that kept going in the jungle, even with lack of proper cleaning equipment, were the M-16 and the FAL. Even the HK weapons were mostly all in the armory, with rusted & froze up bolt roller locks. A friend of mine went over there with CMA to do gunsmith work & training. He brought back pictures of the armories, walls lined solid with G3's. However, I would much rather have an HK weapon than the Mini-14. They probably would not have lasted a full week in Nicaragua. I'm not saying that _some_ Mini-14's aren't good, as I have not had much experience with them, & don't want any more. Nevertheless, if ever "heavily" armed looters come after me, I sure hope they all have Mini-14's!! ... MuzzleFlash ------>> Austin's Machine Gun Source <<---------- --- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 [NR] # Origin: FLOTOM * Austin, Tx * (512)282-3941 HST/DS @16.8 (9:1992/2.0) * Origin: SurvNet Gate System (512) 282-3941 (9:1992/2) Ä SURVIVAL_ORIENTE (9:1992/111) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ECHOMAIL018 Ä Msg : 330 of 330 Loc From : John Mudge 9:1992/111 Thu 21 Jan 93 20:49 To : All Subj : Chinese SKS ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hello All! Judging by all the information I have seen here, it appears that the Chinese SKS has the best price/performance ratio. I do have a few questions about it, though. 1) Does it have a built-in flash guard, or, if not, is one available? How does it attach (internal or external threads?)? If internal threads, doesn't this interfere with the bullet passing through? 2) Are all of them chambered for 7.62mm ammo? Is the ammo they use specific to that rifle, or will 7.62 Nato, for example, work? Will .308 ammo work? 3) What does the "standard" rifle look like. Are all metal parts a dull black? Is the standard stock plastic? Does it have a sling as standard equipment? 4) What does it take to adapt the clip/magazine to accept an AK-47 clip/magazine? 5) What modifications can be made by the owner under the current federal laws? 6) Would this make a good survival hunting rifle? 7) Does it have a built-in bayonet? If not, are they included when one is purchased? Thanks. John Mudge --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: >point MUDGE bbs * Shelton, WA USA< (9:1992/111)